6-799msg1.txt

该程序实现的是一个垃圾邮件过滤系统

Subject: sum : ' this ' and ' that '

dear colleague : last week i send a query to this list ask you about the fomral opposition between ' this ' and ' that ' in the demonstrative ( june 4 , 6 . 772 , qs : ' this ' , . . . ) . i have receive 26 response by now , and so think it necessary to compile a quick summary today as i will be away from tokyo for more than two week start tomorrow . the original text of my query be as follow : some present-day ' european ' language have only one set of simple demonstrative and the opposition of ( this ) v . < that > be express by the help of ( here ) and < there > : french cecus ' this ' ce livre-cus ' this book ' celum ' that ' ce livre-l ` a ' that book ' swedish det ha " r ' this ' den ha " r bilen ' this car ' det da " r ' that ' den da " r bilen ' that car ' estonian see siin ' this ' see maja siin ' this house ' see seal ' that ' see maja seal ' that house ' my sweidish - german dictionary ( stora tyska ordboken ) give ( der hier ) and ( der da ) as colloquial ( familium " r , umgangssprachlich ) german form which conrrespond to ( den ha " r ) and < den da " r > , respectively . how common be a demonstrative system like this ? incidentally , japanese have a rather sophisticate three-way distinction here : kono hon ' this book ( you see here ) ' sono hon ' that book ( you see there ) , the book ( under discussion ) ' ano hon ' that book ( you see over there ) ' so i ' m afraid i will have to convince my student that the japanese be extravagant even in the way of use demonstrative . though the last paragraph be intend as an allusion to the way japanese tourist spend money oversea , quite a few people , both japanese and non - japanese , take it seriously and try to convince me that the japanese language ( sic ! ) be by no means " extravagant " because it be not alone in have a three-way distinction in the demonstrative . some even draw my attention to the existence of a language with a five-way distinction . i thank them for the example of various demonstrative system they send me , but this be not the point i want to discuss . perhap i should have state explicitly that i be interest in the morphology of demonstrative pronoun / adjective . it be very important that french , for instance , have one basic demonstrative pronoun-adjective , i . e . ( ce ) , on the morph-lexical level , and that the speaker of french may optionally add an element mean either ( here ) or < there > in order to make finer distinction ( ce livre-cus , cette table-l ' a ) . in japanese , however , there 's no single basic demonstrative pronoun-adjective like ( ce ) in french : the speaker of japanese must alway choose one from the set of three lexically distinct demonstrative form . this be a big difference , and puzzel many of my student in my estonian syntax class . here be the response which i think have direct relevance to my interest : - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - i imagine that your post be a bite abbreviate , so do not mention the swedish demonstrative denna / detta / dessa and den / det / de , which in any case be grammatically correct but not usual in conversational speech ( " den tiden , " " det aaret , " " de fraagorna " ) . one would expect danish and norwegian to be similar in this regard to swedish , but unfortunately i have little information to contribute . while danish do have both den / det / de and so on plus the option of add " der " ( " tag den bog , " " naer saa du de mennesker ? " ; " hvad er det der ? " , " jeg tager dem ( der ) " ) , i ' m not certain whether usage be quite the same , that be , whether the " den der " form predominate as they do in swedish . [ . . . ] certain dialect of american english do use " this here " and " that there , " as attest by the way schoolteacher warn their student not to use those expression . they ' re nonstandard and be regard as uneducate usage , though i suspect that they actually come from older dialect of british descent in which they be acceptable . - - brian white ( bfwhite @ watson . ibm . com ) - - the use of compund demonstrative be indeed common in my own mother tongue , norwegian , and i believe in all ' scandinavian ' language , ie norwegian , danish and swedish . i feel that it be a feature of colloquial speech , and i would be surprise to find it in ( formal ) write . in fast speech the distinction between the two demonstrative tend to be lose , at least in my own dialect ( bergen , western norway ) : den her bilen - - - - ) 'd enner bilen ' ( this car ) den der bilen - - - - ) 'd enner bilen ' ( that car ) moreover , norwegian ( and , i believe , swedish + danish ) have the distinction : den bilen v denne bilen ( that car v this car ; masc . ) det huset v dette huset ( that house v this house ; neu . ) which seem to correspond closely to this / that in english , and be perfectly acceptable in write and speak norwegian . - - gisle andersen ( gisle . andersen @ eng . uib . no ) - - as a native speaker , i would not really use ( der hier ) even colloquial , ( der da ) be possible , an would more likely contrast with < der dort > , which imply that ( der da ) go along with < this > and not with < that > ! but in general : it be alway a problem for native speaker of german to acquire the this / that distinction , as we do not draw the same boundary . maybe , a more formal ( in term of the register ) would be : ( diese ) ( this ) and < jene > ( that ) - - this it at least what i use in translation ( and also what my german / english dictionary advise me to do - but never trust a dictionary ) . actually , we do not use ( jene ) very much , it go along with very formal speech and maybe even old - fashion . - - gertraud benke ( gertraud @ leland . stanford . edu ) - - english colloquially , esp . black eng . vernacular , uses ' this here ' and ' that there . ' ' this book here ' vs . ' this book there ' sounds perfectly normal , while ' this here book ' and ' that there book ' sound mostly like american english from the south-east portion of the u . s . - - tim beasley ( tbeasley @ uclum . edu ) - - you may be interest to know that many dialect of english ( appalachian us , and therefore some british dialect as well ) have a similar opposition to the one you ' re talk about : this here dog that there dog there be more than one demonstrative use , but the " here " and " there " seem to be relic of some old germanic usage . - - jame kirchner ( jpkirchner @ aol . com ) - - in some dialect of british english ( i ' m not exclude other variety but i do n't know them well enough ) ' this here ' and ' that there ' be perfectly acceptable eg ' look at this here postcard that she send me ' ' pick up that there bucket ' these be normal in my dialect - - david britain ( dbritain @ essex . ac . uk ) - - there be another funny case . in colloquial english , you can say " this here x " and " that there x " . in greek , there be " afto edho " ( usually pronounce " aftodho " ) and " ekino ekus " ( " ekinokus " ) with the same mean . ( " dh " = postdental fricative ) - - stavro macraki ( macraki @ osf . org ) - - interestingly , afrikaans , as a dutch - base creole , have develop ' hierdie ' ( litt . ' here-that ' ) for ' this ' , wherea dutch itself have no such system , use simply 'd eze ' for ' this ' and 'd ie ' for ' that ' . - - henk wolf ( h . a . y . wolf @ stud . let . ruu . nl ) - - i be not sure i understand the question correctly , but in italian ( northern italian at least ) you can say questo quus - or - questo qua ( this here ) instead of " questo " quello lus ' - or - quello la ' ( that there ) instead of " quello " these be both colloquial form . i cannot really say whether they be use in other part of italy . - - anna mazzoldus ( mazzoldus @ iol . ie ) - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - it seem that with a few execption ( italian dialect , greek ) , the phenomenon seem characteristic of germanic language and language that have go through strong germanic influence ( french , estonian ) . note incidentally that finnish , which be genetically closely relate to estonian , be on the japanese side , and that a similar split seem to exist among the romance language as well . interest ? the other give me example of " richer " demonstrative system . if you be interest in those datum , please ask me for a copy of the file which contain all the response in the unedit form . my hearty thanks to the follow people who have respond to my query : philippe l . valiquette ( phlcvali @ vm1 . ulaval . ca ) gertraud benke ( gertraud @ leland . stanford . edu ) brian white ( bfwhite @ watson . ibm . com ) tim beasley ( tbeasley @ uclum . edu ) adriano paolo palma ( pyapp @ sun22 . ccunix . ccu . edu . tw ) jame kirchner ( jpkirchner @ aol . com ) eugene loo ( eugene . loo @ sil . org ) murat kural ( izzyfk6 @ mvs . oac . ucla . edu ) derek gowlett ( gowlett @ beattie . uct . ac . za ) jeff allen ( jhallen @ indiana . edu ) merce ( prat @ cogscus . ed . ac . uk ) nino ( n . vessellum @ agora . stm . it ) david beck ( djbeck @ uvvm . uvic . ca ) debra r west / markell ( markell @ afterlife . ncsc . mil ) anna mazzoldus ( mazzoldus @ iol . ie ) stavro macraki ( macraki @ osf . org ) gisle andersen ( gisle . andersen @ eng . uib . no ) david britain ( dbritain @ essex . ac . uk ) henk wolf ( h . a . y . wolf @ stud . let . ruu . nl ) kiyoko takahashus ( gc610817 @ netserv . chulum . ac . th ) philippe mennecier ( ferry @ cimrs1 . mnhn . fr ) david parkinson ( dp11 @ cornell . edu ) anton sherwood ( dasher @ netcom . com ) ( nebiye . kurtboeke @ art . monash . edu . au ) kirk belnap ( belnapk @ yvax . byu . edu ) geoffrey s . nathan ( geoffn @ siu . edu ) ( as of 09 : 30 jst june 8 , 1995 ) best wish kazuto kazuto matsumura kmatsum @ tooyoo . l . u-tokyo . ac . jp - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - institute for cross - cultural study ( tooyoo gengo ) faculty of letter , university of tokyo hongo 7 - 3 - 1 , bunkyo - ku , tokyo 113 japan tel . + 81 - 3-5800 - 3754 fax : + 81 - 3-5800 - 3740 , 5803-2784 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -