178481

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From: [e-mail] (Isaac Kuo)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc,talk.politics.misc,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Who's next? Mormons and Jews?
Date: 20 Apr 1993 18:18:55 GMT
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In article <[e-mail]> "Casper C. Knies" <[e-mail]> writes:
>Gedaliah Friedenberg ([e-mail]) writes:
>As a Latter-day Saint, I found John's statement *not at all* ludicrous...
>
>Please allow me to explain myself.  In 1838, the governor of Missouri,
>governor Boggs, issued his so-called "Mormon extermination order."  The
>only crime ("illegal activity") the Latter-day Saints had committed, was
>their religious affiliation, their anti-slave stance (Missouri still
>allowed slave practices), and their growing numbers/influence in Missouri.
>
>I guess the Mormons "got what they deserved," because they refused to bow
>to the will of (corrupt and evil) secular authorities. This "disobedience"
				   ^^^^^^^
>brought upon them persecution, murder, and finally forced expulsion from
>their lands and settlements...

It is significant to remember that these secular positions were held by
"average" people, and that at the time, almost all Americans were pretty
homogeonously Christian.  It was largely the mainstream Christian's disgust
at such practices as polygamy which resulted in their irrational hatred.

The situation is not entirely different today.  Many irrational feelings and
beliefs are justified through religion.  I don't think most of them are started
because of religion, but religion certainly helps justify and perpetuate
prejudices and practices by providing a neat justification which discourages
critical thought.

>In any regard, Mormon history alone indicates that secular authorities (and
>I don't even discuss how Uthan's were suckered into allowing part of their
>lands in becoming nerve-gas and atomic bomb testing grounds...) is far from
>being trusted or righteous.  Have things really changed for the better?  I
>may be a born cynic, but I have NO reason whatsoever that such has been the
>case. In the early 1980s, I believe, the late President Kimball (lds church
>leader), strongly protested federal attempts to locate the MX-"Peace Keeper"
>missile maze from being built in Utah (yet another "inspired" decision from
>secular authorities).  Fortunately, his opposition was influential enough
>for the feds to back off.

Do you mean that the "secular authorities" are some continuous group of
people with the common and uninterrupted goal of harrassing/eradicating the
Mormons?  Do you honestly believe that the main reason for using Utah for
nuclear testing etc.. was to "get them thar Mormons"?  And what about the
majority of Uthan's who aren't Mormons?  You seem to be searching for enemy
conspiracies.  It is paranoid to believe that everything that affects you badly
must have been done primarily for that purpose.

>...  David Koresh did NOT pose a great
>threat to the federal authorities or the security of this nation, and with
>John, I too wonder who or what's next...

I personally feel that we should try to stop anyone who is a threat to the
life of even one person.  Sure, he did not pose a threat to the security of
this nation.  But he did pose a threat to the lives of his followers.  That
much is definite.

>Who killed who?  What constitutional right did the ATF officers have to
>invade upon private land and to force themselves into the compound?
>What REALLY caused the "murder" of the little children?  Could it be that
>the ATF/FBI presence has any bearing upon the events?  How would you
>interpret the Mt. Masada events?  --Blame the Jews?  (What the heck did
>the Romans do there anyway?  What business did the ATF/FBI has in Waco,
>Texas???)  The Branch Davidians NEVER posed any threat to society.

This is like asking who REALLY caused the deaths of the Israeli Olympic
team in 1976?  In that case, the police botched the job as well.  But to
lay a heavier burden on them than the terrorists would be a terrible mistake.
I think the same sort of reasoning applies in this case.  Certainly, if David
Koresh chose any peaceful option, the ATF and FBI would have complied.  The
responsibility is more his than the authorities.

>David Koresh, no doubt, will be described as the "evil" guy (by the
>executioners), while the actions of all those "valiant and brave" officers

Characterizing the ATF/FBI as executioners is inaccurate and unfair.  In order
to be an executioner, the least one must have done is have the intent to kill.
-- 
*Isaac Kuo ([e-mail])                   *        _____
*"How lucky you English are to find the toilet so amusing.* ______//_o_\\______
* For us, it is a mundane and functional item.  For you,  *(==(/___________\)==)
* the basis of an entire culture!" Manfred von Richtofen  * \==\/         \/==/