59183

神经网络昆斯林的新闻组分类2006

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From: [e-mail] (Jon Noring)
Subject: Great Post! (was Re: Candida (yeast) Bloom...) (VERY LONG)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Followup-To: sci.med
Summary: Warning, lots of words in typical Phlegmatic fashion
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Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1993 02:15:39 GMT
Lines: 447


GREAT post Martin.  Very informative, well-balanced, and humanitarian
without neglecting the need for scientific rigor.


(Cross-posted to alt.psychology.personality since some personality typing
will be discussed at the beginning - Note: I've set all followups to sci.med
since most of my comments are more sci.med oriented and I'm sure most of the
replies, if any, will be med-related.)


In article [e-mail] writes:

>I can not believe the way this thread on candida(yeast) has progressed.
>Steve Dyer and I have been exchanging words over the same topic in Sci. 
>Med. Nutrition when he displayed his typical reserve and attacked a woman 
>poster for being treated by a licenced physician for a disease that did 
>not exist.  Calling this physician a quack was reprehensible, Steve, and I 
>see that you and some of the others are doing it here as well.  

They are just responding in their natural way:  Hyper-Choleric Syndrome (HCS).
Oops, that is not a recognized "illness" in the psychological community,
better not say that since it therefore must not, and never will, exist.  :^)

Actually, it is fascinating that a disproportionate number of physicians
will type out as NT (for those not familiar with the Myers-Briggs system,
just e-mail me and I'll send a summary file to you).  In the general
population, NT's comprise only about 12% of the population, but among
physicians it is much much higher (I don't know the exact percentage -
any help here a.p.p.er's?)

One driving characteristic of an NT, especially an NTJ, is their obvious
choleric behavior (driver, type A, etc.) - the extreme emotional need to
control, to lead, and/or to be the best or the most competent.  If they are
also extroverted, they are best described as "Field Marshalls".  This trait
is very valuable and essential in our society - we need people who want to
lead, to strive to overcome the elements, to seek and thirst for knowledge,
to raise the level of competency, etc.  The great successes in science and
technology are in large part due to the vision (an N trait) and scientifically-
minded approach (T trait) of the NT personality (of course, the other types
and temperaments have their own positive contributions as well).  However,
when the NT person has self-image challenges, the "dark-side" of this
personality type usually comes out, which should be obvious to all.

A physician who is a strong NT and who has not learned to temper their
temperament will be extremely business-like (lack of empathy or feeling),
and is very compelled to have total control over their patient (the patient
must be obedient to their diagnosis and prescription without question).  I've
known many M.D.'s of this temperament and suffice to say I don't oblige them
with a followup visit, no matter how competent I think they are (and they
usually are very competent from a knowledge viewpoint since that is an
extreme drive of theirs - to know the most, to know it all).

Maybe we need more NF doctor's.  :^)

Enough on this subject - let's move on to candida bloom.


>Let me tell you who the quacks really are, these are the physicans who have 
>no idea how the human body interacts with it's environment and how that 
>balance can be altered by diet and antibiotics...  Could it just be
>professional jealousy?  I couldn't help Elaine or Jon but somebody else did.

You've helped me already by your post.  Of course, I believe that I have
been misdiagnosed on the net as suffering from 'anal retentivitis', but being
the phlegmatic I am, maybe I was just a little too harsh on a few people
myself in past posts.  Let's all try to raise the level of this discussion
above the level of anal effluent.


>...Humans have all 
>kinds of different organisms living in the GI system (mouth, stomach, small 
>and large intestine), sinuses, vagina and on the skin.  These are 
>nonpathogenic because they do not cause disease in people unless the immune 
>system is compromised.  They are also called nonpathogens because unlike 
>the pathogenic organisms that cause human disease, they do not produce 
>toxins as they live out their merry existence in and on our body.  But any of 
>these organisms will be considered pathogenic if it manages to take up 
>residence within the body.  A poor mucus membrane barrier can let this 
>happen and vitamin A is mainly responsible for setting up this barrier.

In my well-described situation (in prior posts), I definitely was immune
stressed.  Blood tests showed my vitamin A levels were very low.  My sinuses
were a mess - no doubt the mucosal lining and the cilia were heavily damaged.
I also was on antibiotics 15 times in 4 years!  In the end, even two weeks
of Ceftin did not work and I had confirmed diagnoses of a chronic bacterial
infection of the sinuses via cat-scans, mucus color (won't get into the
details), and other symptoms.  Three very traditional ENT's made this
diagnosis (I did not have any cultures done, however, because of the
difficulty of doing this right and because my other symptoms clearly showed
a bacterial infection).  Enough of this background (provided to help you
understand where I was when I make comments about my Sporanox anti-fungal
therapy below).


The first question I have is this.  Can fungus penetrate a little way into poor
mucus membrane tissue, maybe via hyphae, thus causing symptoms, without being
considered 'systemic' in the classic sense?  It is sort of an inbetween
infection.


>Steve got real upset with Elaine's doctor because he was using anti-fungals 
>and vitamin A for her GI problems.  If Steve really understoood what 
>vitamin A does in the body, he would not(or at least should not) be calling 
>Elaine's doctor a quack.

I was concerned, too, because of the toxicity of vitamin A.  My doctor, after
my blood tests, put me on 75,000 IU of vitamin A for one week only, then
dropped it down to 25,000 IU for the next couple of weeks.  I also received
zinc and other supplementation, since all of these interrelate in fairly
complex ways as my doctor explained (he's one of those 'evil' orthomolecular
specialists).  I had a blood test three weeks later and vitamin A was normal,
he then stopped me on all vitamin A (except for some in a multi-vitamin)
supplement), and made sure that I maintain a 50,000 IU/day of beta carotene.
Call me carrot face.  :^)

Hopefully, Elaine's doctor will take a similar, careful approach and to
all supplements.  I'm even reevaluating some supplements I'm taking, for
example, niacin in fairly large dosages, 1 gram/day, which Steve Dyer had
good information about on sci.med.nutrition.  If niacin only has second-order
improvement in symptomatic relief of my sinus allergies, then it probably is
not worth taking such a large dose long-term and risking liver damage.


>survives.  If it gets access to a lot of glucose, it blooms and over rides 
>the other organisms living with it in the sinuses, GI tract or vagina.  In 

Though I do now believe, based on my successful therapy with Sporanox, that
I definitely had some excessive growth of fungus (unknown species) in my
sinuses, I still want to ask the question:  have there been any studies that
demonstrate candida "blooms" in the sinuses with associated sinus irritation
(sinusitis/rhinitis)?  (My sinus irritation reduced significantly after one
week of Sporanox and no other new treatments were implemented during this
time - I did not have any noticeable GI track problems before starting on
Sporanox, but some for a few days after which then went away - considered
normal).

BTW, my doctor dug out one of his medical reference books (sorry, can't
remember which one), and found an obscure comment dating back into the 1950's
which stated that people can develop contained (non-lethal or non-serious)
aspergillis infestations (aspergiliosis) of the sinuses leading to sinus
inflammation symptoms.  I'll have to dig out that reference again since it
is relevant to this discussion.


>some people do really develop a bad inflammatory process at the mucus 
>membrane or skin bloom site.  Whether this is an allergic like reaction to 
>the candida or not isn't certain.

My doctor tested me (I believe a RAST or RAST similar test) for allergic
response to specificially Candida albicans, and I showed a strong positive.
Another question, would everybody show the same strong positive so this test
is essentially useless?  And, assuming it is true that Candida can grow
part-way into the mucus membrane tissue, and the concentration exceeds a 
threshold amount, could not a person who tests as having an allergy to
Candida definitely develop allergic symptoms, such as mucus membrane
irritation due to the body's allergic response?  As I said in an earlier post,
one does not need to be a rocket scientist, or have a M.D. degree or a 
Ph.D. in biochemistry to see the plausibility of this hypothesis.

BTW, and I'll repost this again.  Dr. Ivker, in his book, "Sinus Survival",
has routinely given, before anything else, Nizoral (a pre-Sporanox systemic
anti-fungal, not as safe and not as good as Sporanox) to his new chronic
sinusitis patients IF they have been on antibiotics four or more times in
the last two years.  He claims that out of 2000 or so patients, well over
90% notice some relief of sinus inflammation and other symptoms, but it
doesn't cure it by any means, implying the so-called yeast/fungus infection
is not the primary cause, but a later complication.  He's also found that
nystatin, whether taken internally, or put into a sinus spray, does not help.

This implies (of course assuming that excessive yeast/fungus bloom is
aggravating the sinus inflammation) that the yeast/fungus has grown partway
into the tissue since nystatin will not kill yeast/fungus other than by
direct contact - it is not absorbed into the blood stream.  Again, I admit,
lots of 'ifs', and 'implies', which doesn't please the hard-core NT who
has to have the double-blind study or it's a non-issue, but one has to start
with some plausible hypothesis/explanation, a strawman, if you will.


>If it's internal, only symptoms can be used and these symptoms are pretty 
>nondescript.  

This brings up an interesting observation used by those who will deny
and reject any and all aspects of the 'yeast hypothesis' until the
appropriate studies are done.  And that is if you can't observe or culture
the yeast "bloom" in the gut or sinus, then there's no way to diagnose or
even recognize the disease.  And I know they realize that it is virtually
impossible to test for candida overbloom in any part of the body that cannot
be easily observed since candida is everywhere in the body.

It's a real Catch-22.

Another Catch-22:  Those who totally reject the 'yeast hypothesis' say that
no studies have been done (actually studies have been done, but if it's not
up to a certain standard then it is, from their perspective, a non-study which
should not even be considered).  I agree that the appropriate studies should
be done, and that will take big $ to do it right.  However, in order to
convince the funding agencies in these austere times to open their wallets,
you literally have to give them evidence, and the only acceptable evidence to
compete with other proposals is paradoxically to do almost the exact study
needed funding.  That is, you have to do 90% of the study before you even get
funding (as a scientist at a National Lab, I'm very aware of this for the
smaller funded projects).  I'm afraid that even if Dr. Ivker and 100 other
doctors got together, pooled their practice's case histories and anecdotes
into a compelling picture, and approach the funding agencies, they would get
nowhere, even if they were able to publish their statistical results.

It is obvious from the comments by some of the doctors here is that they have
*decided* excessive yeast colonization in the gut or sinuses leading to
noticeable non-lethal symptoms does not exist, and is not even a tenable
hypothesis, so any amount of case histories or compiled anecdotal evidence
to the contrary will never change their mind, and not only that, they would
also oppose the needed studies because in their minds it's a done issue - 
excessive yeast growth leading to diffuse allergic symptoms does not, will
not, and cannot exist.  Period.  Kind of tough to dialog with those who hold
such a viewpoint.  Kind of reminds me of Lister...