rfc82.txt

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Network Working Group                               Edwin W. Meyer, Jr.
Request for Comments #82                                MIT Project MAC
Network Information Center #5619                        December9, 1970


                         Network Meeting Notes

   The following summary was transcribed from notes I took at three
   network meetings held in Houston during the 1970 Fall Joint Computer
   Conference.  Although I have tried to be objective, unavoidably these
   notes present a biased view of the meetings.  This is due in part to
   my preoccupation with certain topics and possible misunderstanding of
   various discussions.  While I have tried to accurately paraphrase the
   statements of the attendees, the import of some may have been
   twisted.

                        Attendees of Monday Meeting

   Dick Benjamin                           MITRE
   Jack Bouknight                          UI-CAC
   Al Cocanower                            MIRUT
   Steve Crocker                           UCLA
   Dough Engelbart                         SRI
   Richard Greenblatt                      MIT-MAC
   Eric Harslem                            RAND
   Frank Heart                             BBN
   Allen Joseph                            ORNL (Oak Ridge)
   Peggy Karp                              MITRE
   William B. Kehl                         UCLA
   Bob Long                                  SDC
   Jim Madden                              UI-CAC
   Bob Metcalfe                            MIT-MAC
   Edwin Meyer                             MIT-MAC
   Ari Ollikainen                          UCLA
   Tom O'Sullivan                          Raytheon
   Jon Postel                              UCLA
   Chris Reeve                             MIT-MAC
   Tjaart Schipper                         UCAL-CCN
   Michael S. Sher                         UI-CAC
   Bob Sundberg                            Harvard
   Hal van Zoeren                          CMU
   Albert Vezza                            MIT-MAC
   Alfred H. Vorhaus                       MITRE
   Clark Weissman                          SDC







Meyer                                                           [Page 1]

RFC 82                   Network Meeting Notes             December 1970


                              Network Meeting
                         8:05 PM Monday, 11/16/70

   Crocker: Not everybody is here, so lets talk until more people get
      here.  is everybody satisfied with the agenda in my announcement ?

   Meyer: We should talk about logger protocol.  Operational usage of
      the net- work, as opposed to experiments, depends on its
      implementation.

   Introductions to all around.

   Crocker: I have an agenda, but want suggestions for topics.

      1)  I will make introductory remarks.
      2)  I will list topics of concern.
      3)  Englebart will talk about the Network Information Center
      4)  I  will review the status of sites.

   Introductory remarks

      1)  ARPA will not pay for the coffee and pastry being served, so
          please chip in to help me pay for it.
      2)  I am going to devote full time to network coordination in an
          official capacity.  My goals are: (a) to build up usability of
          the network.  (b) to establish protocol levels, (c) ?

   Areas of importance

      1)  Some site of coalition of sites should prepare a method by
          which a site's NCP could be checked out.
      2)  Reworking of NCP protocol.  Some issues could be solved
          better:  (a) error control, (b) flow control, (c) overloading
          - loosing network states, (d) simplification and relayering of
          protocol.
      3)  Telnet system  console interaction, or logger protocol.  How
          to get into the system and how to get help when in trouble.
      4)  Documentation of individual hosts.  Network Info Center
          involved.  Perhaps each site could be provided with a
          facsimile device.
      5)  More sophisticated consoles, particularly graphics consoles,
          to be attached through network.  There should be a working
          group to formulate and workout a format for handling
          sophisticated consoles.  There will be a graphics meeting in
          January in Colorado or Utah.  The price of admission is to
          write a proposal.  I expect up to 30 people.  I will pick a
          small subset to develop specifications.




Meyer                                                           [Page 2]

RFC 82                   Network Meeting Notes             December 1970


      6)  Accounting - In the 2nd half of 1971 more sites will come on
          where accounting is important. (They want to send bills.)
          Larry Roberts says that there will be a kind of banking system
          with bills passed around.  Two types of sites: billing sites,
          and free but limited access research sites.  I see no
          fundamental problems.  What happens when a research site talks
          to a billing site? I think it is do-able.
      7)  Measurements - the network is a tool, but it is also a model
          that is better than a simulation package.  Various people want
          to make measurements.  This could be supported by keeping
          statistics in NCP's What about increasing the NCP's to include
          these?

   Long: Putting accounting and measuring into NCP's costs space.  Keep
      additions to a minimum.

   Weissman: What about scheduled availability of various systems?

   Crocker: This has to be coordinated with each individual system

   ?   : What happens to connections when a system goes down?

   Crocker: What about graphics proposals? I will write my own paper as
      a proposal.  It uses the DEC 340 as a model.  Modes assumes scope
      system a memory.  Both output-input are included in standards
      making.  I want a competent protocol to be developed out of the
      working group.

   Crocker: What about documentation?

   Meyer: Documentation on how to use other systems are a must.  Only
      this can motivate operational use of the network.

   --: What about putting documents on-line at each site, or at least
      abstracts.

   Crocker: What sites have documents on-line? (MIT and Harvard) How do
      the sites feel about keeping documents on some foreign system?

   Crocker: What about reworking the protocol?

   Harslem: We have logged into the UCSB system and are debugging
      cooperatively.

   Harslem: We are impressed with eliminating marking and padding (per
      RFC 67).





Meyer                                                           [Page 3]

RFC 82                   Network Meeting Notes             December 1970


   Crocker: We discussed this with the sites.  Most seemed to accept it,
      but some reservations.  What about changes to the basic protocol.
      I'm Meyer has something to say.

   Meyer: The position at Project MAC is that at this point we are
      opposed to changes other than critical fixes.  Time spent on
      changes is time that won't be spent on developing other necessary
      and interesting protocols and systems.  And we at Multics have a
      long lead time for creation and installation of changes.

   Weissman: I prefer to put in changes in one chunk, say at 6 month
      intervals.  rather than in bits pieces.

   O'Sullivan: Can't current and new systems work simultaneously?

   Crocker: If the changes involve the IMP, no, because all IMPs want to
      operate the same system.

   Meyer: The feeling at M.I.T. is that to be a success, the network
      needs desperately to be used operationally.  If another year
      passes without significant operational use, it might go down the
      drain.

   --: And documentation is critical towards motivating operational
      usage.

   Engelbart: Perhaps we should put off graphics several months so as
      not to delay typewriters.  Typewriters are important.

   --: But would that be sufficiently impressive for DOD people?

   Engelbart: But if it turns out to be a can of worms in two years...

   --: But do the two (typewriters and graphics) development groups
      interact?

   Vezza and Engelbart: Yes.

   Crocker: Let's hear more about this.

   Harslem: We want to be able to access files.

   Crocker: Then perhaps the graphics effort would dilute typewriter
      development.  Is it the consensus of this group that we shouldn't
      have a graphics meeting?

   Vezza: Newcomers should work on graphics, not established people.
      Prohibit current people form going to this meeting.



Meyer                                                           [Page 4]

RFC 82                   Network Meeting Notes             December 1970


   Meyer: That would be very frustrating.

   Benjamin: Why not solicit position papers (but have no meeting).

   Weissman: Character transmission is easier than graphic transmission
      More experiments needed for graphics.  The lead time for
      developing a graphic protocol is much longer than for typewriters.

   Vezza: I agree.

   Crocker: There will be more meetings in the next few days to work on
      problems of getting useful work over the network.

   Intermission

   9:15 PM

   Crocker: Engelbart will speak on Network Information Center.

   Engelbart: NIC grew as an ad hoc thing, with no specific directives
      from ARPA.  What kinds of things were envisioned? (1)
      Sophisticated query systems, (2) Basic information about systems
      at each site.  Everyone feels very vulnerable about the state of
      documentation at his own site.  Everyone agrees: better documents
      necessary.  We see ourselves as providing the following services:
      1) collecting hard-copy material; 2) on-line querying of catalogs
      and indices of these; 3) giving access to this material.  We
      decided to go hard copy rather than on-line, perhaps on
      microfiche.

   Engelbart: As 940 was to be used for the documentation system,
      expandable as usage increase.  We are switching form a 940 to a
      10X to better expand service capacity.  Amount of capacity goes up
      considerably.  This has held up work on other facets.  A conscious
      gamble.  We are worried about getting of the ground.  We are short
      on funds for more secondary storage and are interested in using
      other hosts for tertiary storage.  The cost of implementing the
      protocol on the 940 was too high for potential gains, so it was
      given up.  Few sites would be up by January when our 940 was to be
      shipped out.

   Engelbart: We have created a Network Dialogue System.  This is a
      network of human agents.  At each site there is: a) technical
      communications agent (secretary) and b) a technical liaison
      person.  We are encouraging agents to talk to us and have created
      "Enterprise" phone numbers so they can talk toll free.





Meyer                                                           [Page 5]

RFC 82                   Network Meeting Notes             December 1970


   Engelbart: We are at first sending out a tiny kit to each agent, a
      growing collection of network reference information.  One person
      (agent) at each site is to be trained to handle the set of
      documents and retrieve information of contact another site's
      technical liaison.  This involves a public dialogue, keeping a
      record of the documents passing back and forth.  This is a sort of
      "human IMP" network, structured as follows:

     ________________________________
    |                                |
    |              ________________  |
    |             |   local        | |     one
    |             |   reference    | | <== site    ____________
    |             |    material    | |            (            )
    |             -----------------| |            (            )
    |                                |         => (____________)
    |                                |        ||       \\
    |                                |        ||     Other sites
    |                                |        ||         \\
    |                  ________      |        ||      ____________
    | local =====>    |        |================     (            )
    | users           |  agent |=====|===============(            )
    |       =====>    |________|     |               (____________)
    |                                |
    |________________________________|


          1) Master collection has all material.
          2) Each local collection has a subset considered most useful.

   --: What about restricting access to documents?

   Engelbart: All files are public files in this system.

   Vezza: You can send a private memo rather than use the NIC service.

   Engelbart: The master collection contains books and other documents.
      Cataloged on-line.  Hard copy stuff can be duplicated.  For
      information that passes the value test, the service is to store,
      catalog, index, and provide access to documents.  We will support
      a number of different terminal.  We are prepared to go a long time
      with hard copy items, but can establish a hard copy to on-line
      transcription service for a price.

   Weissman: What about distributing OCR Selectric balls to sites?

   --: Will NIC take what is sent or actively search it out?




Meyer                                                           [Page 6]