rfc164.txt

RFC 的详细文档！

RFC 164         Minutes of Network Working Group Meeting        May 1971


   Dick Winter described the CCA approach.  With several data computers
   it becomes decentralized.  All data computers have identical hardware
   and software.  Their objective is to dispose and restructure data
   throughout the Net to optimize its use, i.e., relocate it close to
   where it is used most heavily.  For small files of wide interest
   multiple copies can be maintained.

   Dr. Roberts commented that with respect to the Network, no
   distance/cost relationship exists if data is retrieved more than one
   link away.  The reason for putting files in several places is
   reliability.  He views the CCA approach as a Net-level language, thus
   the unified approach.  Also the natural language approach is suitable
   as a research project but not suitable for data management for real
   Net experiments.

   CCA will present a proposal of data language at the next NWG meeting.

OPEN DISCUSSION ON DATA MANAGEMENT

   This time period was initially allocated to the description of a
   particular data management system being constructed by Mitre.  It
   became, in fact, an open discussion of general principles and
   requirements for data management in the Network.  The following were
   among the most recurrent comments made.

   1.  DRS, file protocol, and data management should be examined in a
       comprehensive way.

   2.  Important considerations of data management are to allow users to
       define and restructure files logically, to move towards
       transparency of the Net, and to move toward natural language.

   3.  A data management system should include functions for define,
       access, manipulate, analyze, store of files.  For example, the
       data computer doesn't do formatting for output (like an RPG), it
       can take a number of conditions and do conditional retrieval but
       not RPG.

   4.  A data management system could be developed in stages where a)
       the user explicitly moves data around the Net, b) the user
       specifies the location but the access is integrated
       automatically, c) location is maintained by the service.

   5.  An area should be defined between file handling and application
       specific manipulation, and the area should be treated in a system
       wide way.





Heafner                                                        [Page 25]

RFC 164         Minutes of Network Working Group Meeting        May 1971


   6.  The super file (too large for any one individual to economically
       own) never came up before but it is reasonable for the Net.
       However it is just one use and there still will be need of many
       10^9 files.

   7.  Privacy and security criteria should be applied at output rather
       than input, which is an argument for having processing capability
       at the location of the file.

   8.  Dr. Roberts indicated that the things that are important are what
       things are on the Net, and what things are there to say.  The
       structure depends on what there is to say.  Thus, one should
       concentrate on the language and not the structure.

   9.  The data management system can be viewed as having two parts: 1)
       the request, 2) the response and format.  On the response side
       (operand side) there is the taxonomy of data types and a template
       of data followed by the data.  A template is a string in which
       data types or their descriptions are given with knowledge of
       iteration, recursion, and data types.  On the request (operator)
       side, templates can be used to precisely specify the data to be
       retrieved, assuming the structure of the file is already
       specified.

   10. The disposition and request are over structures to the response.

   A small group was established to continue discussion on data
   management.























Heafner                                                        [Page 26]

RFC 164         Minutes of Network Working Group Meeting        May 1971


                  VI.  TUESDAY EVENING SESSION (5/18/71)

TERMINAL IMP

   The TIP can either be configured with 1) one host and two phone lines
   or 2) three phone lines.  Interfaces will provide 19.2KB to lowest
   TTY speeds for each line.  It can handle various terminals and
   devices.

   Normally the user speaks through the TIP but a primitive language
   exists for talking to the TIP.  Commands will exist to do the
   particular protocols such as logger.  Other commands will be present
   for terminate on line feed, on character, now, on nth char., at end
   of message, i.e., class of things to determine when message is sent.
   There is another class to determine echoing.  Device rates can be set
   up.  The serving site can also set up command such as capturing a
   printer.

   The TIP is currently trying to comply with all second and third level
   protocols such as TELNET, file transfer (when defined).

   Current plans are that the TIP cannot be reloaded through the
   Network.

   When new terminals are added, BBN will supply the TIP routines as
   part of the service.

   The TIP is intended to be used for RJE, terminal to process, and
   later tape to tape.  The TIP is intended to be a switch rather than
   an operating system, under the assumption that power will reside in
   terminals and service centers.

   The program limits the bandwidth -- the sum of input and output is
   100KB.

   Potential for TIP delivery is about one every three weeks after
   August.  An upper figure for the TIP is $100K; the leasable terms are
   $40K/yr. for three years plus a residual of $5K to own it, with a
   two-year minimum.  This was designed as an alternate method of
   purchase.

"COMMENTS BY DR. ROBERTS"

   The major cost benefit in the near term to getting on the Network
   will be to use other physical systems to access new resources.  It
   will be a number of years before people enter the Network in order to
   get rid of machines or to boost CPU usage.




Heafner                                                        [Page 27]

RFC 164         Minutes of Network Working Group Meeting        May 1971


   Regarding future Network growth, the University of California has
   proposed to enter seven universities into the Network.  We should
   have the data and program sharing protocols fixed by that time.  ETAC
   will be working on the past 10 years weather in 10^11 store.  NCAR
   will be trading time (a 6600 and a 7600) with them and with ILLIAC;
   use is restricted to weather work.  January or February are probable
   dates.  This will be a third cross country connection through UTAH
   perhaps (second is via Omaha weather).  SC will be added in March or
   April '72 for picture processing.  England will join about February '
   72.  There are other plans to tie in Mexico, France, Israel,
   Australia, Japan, Hawaii, Canada, etc. that could possibly all happen
   in '72.

   With regard to operating the Network, ARPA will not operate it
   indefinitely.  One plan is to have AT&T operate it since they can
   legally sell the services; this will not come about soon.  A
   commercial organization (not a common carrier) can only operate the
   Net under Government sponsorship.  The current plan is to have BBN
   run the Net as a service for the Government; this will be settled
   within the coming year.

   On the question of resources, setting up contracts with the service
   people at each site to get one agent to ship money for various
   subcontracts is a basic legal framework; for ARPA purposes it is
   sufficient to have only one connection with each site.

   On software development, the NCP progress has been extremely poor and
   slow.  The second iteration should have been defined by now from
   experiences with the first.  Towards the end of the year a new
   protocol should be defined to last for a couple of years.  Accounting
   and billing protocol should also be defined.  The NCP protocol is
   getting to be a critical problem -- everyone should be complete and
   consistent with the current protocol by July 1.  Without it, there
   will be serious problems of bringing new people onto the Net.  For
   example, the I4 and the laser store will be on the Net by March or
   April of '72 with serious people wanting to use it (80% of its use
   will be remote).  By early '72 the Net must be a solid working
   entity.

   The question of profit making time-sharing companies on the Net
   depends on whether or not AT&T takes over Net operations.

   The capital arrangement for non-ARPA users to be on the Net is as
   follows.  A federal agency can donate $76K and get a TIP.  Non-
   federal agencies can pay $36K per year for the TIP for three years
   plus the $5K residual to own it.  ARPA will not decide casually to
   allow non-federal agencies on.




Heafner                                                        [Page 28]

RFC 164         Minutes of Network Working Group Meeting        May 1971


   Regarding software support services, documentation will be upgraded
   so all sites need not keep complete NIC documentation (except service
   sites).  In service centers it makes sense to add one or two
   personnel to work on net service programs, work with users, etc., if
   needed.  Research centers will now have to concern themselves with
   reliability, integrity, and problems of access.

   Regarding the charging mechanism for the data computer, the 10^12
   store cost one million, plus the cost of the PDP-10; thus 10^-4
   cents/bit is reasonable for permanent storage.  The rate for short
   term storage strips (like two weeks) will be about the same.  If
   medium term storage is needed, a rate will be worked out.  ARPA will
   pay for this storage as backup for the sites.

   The on-lineness of NIC is very important for initial use, but we must
   have something better than TTY or CRT.  The Net is cheaper than the
   mails.  (Electrostatic hard-copy devices were briefly mentioned).

   Regarding new developments for AI symbolic processing, a plan hatched
   by Alan Kay is to have lots of processor, lots of core and a big
   switch with the capability of serving users in the Net.  It is to
   provide low cost core space (economics of processing are not known).
   This may become associated with some experimental hardware
   development facility since the desire is to be able to build new
   architecture in a reasonable amount of time.  It should be 10 to 100
   times faster than the PDP-10 with earliest delivery in '73.

   The speech effort is on the order of three million per year.  The
   concern now is to be able to tie together pieces at various sites for
   comparative evaluation.  The cross-testing can have an impact on the
   researcher, but everybody must maintain compatible interfaces.

   The climatology program is for predicting future long-range climate
   of the World that comes about by perturbations.  Various sites are
   involved at various levels and it is hard to get these people to big
   computers, to the data bases, and with each other.  The Network
   provides their total communication path with the I4.  Direct and
   effective use of the Network can be made without much more of an
   investment; the Rand/UCSB work is a good example.












Heafner                                                        [Page 29]

RFC 164         Minutes of Network Working Group Meeting        May 1971


                 VII.  WEDNESDAY MORNING SESSION (5/19/71)

   This session began with discussion of file transfer protocol, led by
   Abhay Bhusan.  It was decided that the current file transfer protocol
   should be parsed into two pieces -- a data transfer protocol front-
   end that could be used for file transfer and other protocols, and the
   file mechanism protocol.  This problem was referred to the committee
   which met for the remainder of the day to specify the data transfer
   and file protocols.  An RFC will be forth-coming, describing these
   protocols.

   The data management group met in parallel Wednesday.  An RFC will be
   forthcoming on their results.






































Heafner                                                        [Page 30]

RFC 164         Minutes of Network Working Group Meeting        May 1971


                VIII.  WEDNESDAY EVENING SESSION (5/19/71)

   The following information was summarized by Steve Crocker.

      Committees         Publication Date     Approval Date

   ICP - Postel               5/27                6/3
   File Transfer - Bhusan     6/7                 ---
   Data Mgmnt. - McKay       (7/21)               ---
   Socket Struc. - Metcalfe   6/22                ---
   Telnet - O'Sullivan        5/19                6/10
   Theory - Metcalfe          ---                 ---
   DRS - Heafner              6/1                 ---
   Graphics - Vezza          (7/18)               ---

   The following inputs were provided to Steve Crocker on implementation
   dates of NCP (RFC #107) and TELNET (RFC #158).

           Service Hosts             NCP + TELNET

             CCN                        7/1
             LL/67                      6/15
             SRI/NIC                   (6/18)
             MIT/MULTICS                7/1
             BBN/10X                     ?
             UCSB/75                    Up

   __Host__                NCP (RFC #107)          TELNET (RFC #158)

   UCLA/S7                      6/1                      6/15
   Rand                         Up                       6/15
   Utah                         Up                       6/15
   U. of Ill.                   7/1                      7/1
   Harvard                       ?                        ?
   MIT/DM                       5/25                     6/25

   The following inputs were provided to Steve Crocker on schedules for
   current and pending work.

        Users                          Tasks

        Mitre                 data management in progress

        Raytheon              data sharing (August)

        NBS                   PDP-11 via low-speed phone line
                              (July)




Heafner                                                        [Page 31]

RFC 164         Minutes of Network Working Group Meeting        May 1971


        BBN                   validation of resource notebook
                              (July 15)

        UCLA                  data store, retrieval, reduction
                              (July 1)

        DM/MULTICS/Harvard    graphics, file transfer (July 1)

        Ames/67               I4 simulator (July 15)
                              climate with UCSB (now)
                              climate with UCLA (July 1)
                              DRS (September)
                              SRI/NIC (August)
                              LL LISP (?)

        LL                    TX2 speech data
                              TX2 data transfer (now)
                              TSP compiler (September)

        U. of Ill.            remote use (July 1)
                              link to Paoli (July 1)

Miscellaneous Issues

   Alex McKenzie will generate the NCP functional document in one month
   as an experiment.

   Service documents to be sent to NIC include normal user documentation
   you would use at the site plus special conventions (if any) for
   remote users.  Read RFC #115 and RFC #118.

NWG Organization

   There is some concern over the size of the NWG.  Its functions and
   reorganization were discussed.  Nothing definitive resulted
   immediately.  It was suggested by Steve Crocker that another NWG
   meeting would be held in August.

   Dr. Roberts and Steve Crocker created a steering committee to examine
   this and other problems.  More will be said about the steering
   committee by Steve Crocker, at a later date.


       [ This RFC was put into machine readable form for entry ]
       [ into the online RFC archives by Nicholas Barnes 08/99 ]






Heafner                                                        [Page 32]